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thank you for rating! ReBoot: Five Life-Changing Mistakes and How I Moved On

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AnneGogh responded on July 20, 2008 Julie, most of us are never going to achieve the heights you did as CEO of a company. As just a little ol' freelancer, I hesitate to comment. Uncomfortableness aside, though, I just want to say that I was so touched by your transparency. I haven't been attacked publicly ever, but I've suffered from depression - just recently in fact. It helps a lot to hear personal stories, and it helped to read how you might have handled things differently regarding therapy and/or medication; things I'm debating now myself. So thank you for your valuable post, as I know it will bless others to read it, as it did me.

nancy-ocean responded on July 21, 2008 Dear Anne & Julie, I wanted to respond on behalf of the healing powers of beauty! Something in Julie drew (pardon the pun!) her to artwork during a very dark time in her journey. And later she stated that it's beauty that keeps her going - the more she sees the more she wants and the more she gets the better she feels. Beauty and creativity can be very powerful in our lives. And it doesn't surprise me that Julie was drawn to these naturally. Anne, maybe the artistic kinds of activities Julie used will support you well as you move beyond the depressive feelings you're dealing with. Walking in nature, along the beach, taking any kind of art class, sketching on blank pages with colored pencils or crayons, playing with clay, playing with color in any and all ways you can think of can be very healing, and perhaps more importantly, nurturing. Coming at a time when nurturing is probably what we need most! (Also, and this may sound silly, but simply turning up the corners of my mouth helps me tremendously! Not a full on smile - just the beginning suggestion of happiness - changes my perspective!) Hugs, Nancy

AnneGogh responded on August 4, 2008 Nancy, thanks so much for taking the time to offer some great ideas for using creativity to help with depression. Actually during this time I've found that my creative work has been the one thing that's brought me a lot of joy, and feel myself moving up to the surface from some murky waters. I don't have a lot of time to indulge in all the creative aspects I'd like to, but am going to try and carve in more time for some of the beauty in nature and other creative pursuits. Thank you again.

julie responded on August 2, 2008 Nancy, Thank you for your insights. Warmly, Julie

julie responded on July 20, 2008 Anne, Thank you for letting me know this. It's very vulnerable to be this open, but I did it because I hoped it would help at least one person.

chris responded on July 31, 2008 I don't normally comment on blogs, but this was a very insightful and transparent post. I could really feel that you were being open and honest with everything your wrote about. Thanks for sharing and goodluck with everything that you do.

julie responded on August 9, 2008 Thanks, Chris.

Wendy responded on July 30, 2008 Julie, If the only thing you'd written was how you moved on from mistake #2, it would've been worth it, but everything you shared here is inspiring. Thank you for having the courage to be so open, and for starting this website. I love what you're doing here. Keep it up!

julie responded on July 31, 2008 Thank you, Wendy.

hkremer responded on July 21, 2008 Please post (either on your site or on twitter) the tape of your KRON interview from this last weekend - I'd love to see it! Great site, count me in as a "member" of your "club!" Keep up the good work! ~H

julie responded on July 21, 2008 Thanks, I'll find the KRON tape, didnt know it was up.

julie responded on July 21, 2008 KRON tape is no where to be found. If anyone sees it, let me know. Thanks.

Just4Moi responded on July 23, 2008 You just saved me 6 months of therapy. I've been trying to find a blueprint to a new life for sometime. You made me realize I already have one. I need to believe in myself and shake off the negativity in my life: people, places and things. Thank you for sharing.

julie responded on July 23, 2008 One of the most inspiring things a dear friend of mine said to me during this period was, "I know things are tough for you, but I also know you have everything inside of yourself that you need to be whole and happy again." Those few words caused a shift in me. I think this applies to all. Thanks for posting this Just4Moi.

Dino responded on July 24, 2008 Dear Julie, Hope you remember me, I heard your name on the Saturday KRON 4 news but missed your interview. Hope your well and this website does wonderful for you. Best regards, Dino Vannoni

julie responded on July 24, 2008 DINO! How could I forget you! You are part of my childhood teenage memories. I'm sorry to say I lost touch with Tina. Are you in the Bay Area? Send me a note: Julie@smartnow.com. Let's talk.

pen responded on July 25, 2008 It is one of life's ironies that we can quickly announce the failure in others, but not in ourselves. You were buried in these pronouncements, yet managed to sort out those which were truly yours from those manufactured against you. You are a true inspiration. Be well.

julie responded on July 25, 2008 Thank you for your kind words.

Debbie responded on July 25, 2008 Julie Interesting comment about your high school years. Although you were certainly smart and pretty, I rememeber you most for your friendliness to shy girls like me. And yes I got over that shyness a long time ago. Good Luck with your new endeavor. Debbie (Skwiercz) Buckley

julie responded on July 25, 2008 Debbie, You are so sweet to write that. How are you? Where are you? How wonderful for you to remember that.

Girlfriendology responded on July 27, 2008 Julie - I'm so glad I found you (or you found me?!) on Twitter. It is so inspiring to read your honest, touching history. Thanks for sharing and for inspiring me and so many others. I am so sorry that people were rude to you and that you had to go through those dark years. Thanks for sharing your lessons with us all so we could understand you better as well as other people going through tough situations. Your story will remind me to look inside the person for their true self and potential. Again, so glad to have 'met' you! I look forward to interviewing you for a Girlfriendology Podcast. Thanks! Debba www.girlfriendology.com

julie responded on July 27, 2008 Debba, Thanks for posting. Looking forward to our podcast. Warmly, Julie

Pam responded on July 28, 2008 Jules, Thank you for your honest self-examination. I was amazed at how well you seemed to be, both physically and emotionally well, during the period immediately following the shattering of your two pillars. Your smile never wavered, at least when I saw you. You describe a state of mind a friend of mine calls suicide by accident. She once told me she can asses her state of mind by imagining she steps off a curb and then notices a speeding bus. If her imagined response is, "oh well," she knows she's in trouble. To the outside world, my friend always seems just fine. You and my nameless friend both might have benefited from deeper listening from your friends when you really needed it.

julie responded on July 28, 2008 Hi Pam, If only I was that aware in the moments of darkness... my hindsight is 20/20. My hope in writing this is to help others see in themselves what I couldn't and to offer some hope and perhaps tools for dog paddling out. thanks for the post,

hal responded on July 30, 2008 Hi, Julie. It's Hal. Mitch just forwarded this to me. Beautifull written, very courageous and honest piece. You've clearly moved beyond bullet points, to paragraphs. Chapters and books to follow as you continue the journey. You engaged my head and heart: a balance I continually seek as well. Cheers.

julie responded on August 2, 2008 Thank you, Hal.

t0pj responded on July 31, 2008 Came across your post courtesy of Hacker News [news.ycombinator.com]. "I had people laugh in my face when I introduced myself for years after the company closed." Julie, On behalf of everyone here at HN, you are welcome here anytime. You will have the last laugh, I'm sure. :)

julie responded on August 1, 2008 Thanks, Hacker News.

Ya Chun responded on July 31, 2008 Very nice insights. I've posted a pared down version on my blog, serenityjoy.blogspot.com

julie responded on August 1, 2008 Thank you Ya Chun.

pearl responded on August 1, 2008 Hi Julie, I've recently been in a position where I publicly failed too, after taking a lot of risks and perhaps (as you did) operating from an old engrained image of myself. Like you, I was always the "smart one," an older daughter, and similarly, in the software product management space. I could relate to a *lot* of what you wrote about. I really valued your roadmap here. I'm going to come back and re-read this, because I think it will help me shorten my path (hopefully). I think you should remember to honor your courage in taking those risks in the first place. If we don't try to walk, we will certainly never fly. Most people don't take those risks. For me, when I have a full life again, I will want to honor myself for that courage I exhibited, and I honor you for it too. Sometimes, the meaning of a huge fall-on-your-face failure is not actually clear. Why should we go through so much suffering? But I think somehow it hollows us out, and we live more fully afterwards. I hope that for both of us. Best, Pearl

julie responded on August 1, 2008 Pearl, Thank you. What a wonderful note. I honestly believe if an angel would have tapped me on the shoulder and said "You are really going to mess up and go into a dark place for awhile (and it will seem like forever and you won't see a way out), but then you will find a way out and you will be better. And, you will be able to help others immensely by knowledge of your own humanity and frailty. Will you take the journey?" Well, if I would have been given that option, I would have signed on without hesitation. Looks like I might have done so without knowing I had the option. I wish you the best! Warmly, Julie

anthonykuhn responded on August 1, 2008 I understand this site is mostly aimed a women, but I found it during a search for articles on innovation and business. I linked to your piece, Julie, in my blog for the Innovators-Network because your experiences and honesty are worth their weight in gold. I find that there are many who don't appreciate positivity, energy, and truthfulness these days, so your commitment to some of these values speaks to me and mine. Thank you for an insightful and revealing look at your path back to the good life.

julie responded on August 1, 2008 Thank you, Anthony. I will check out your site.

KareAnderson responded on August 1, 2008 I found you via Ben Casnocha - and what an apt post today from you! For all of us women who were raised to achieve, then let our head rule our heart - instead of engaging both... a habit that is slow to learn it seems yet is soooo nourishing. Echoing many others here I, too, appreciated your transparency and your clarity. Having two close friends die in the past three years and a biz partnership collapse I am coming out the other side a more appreciative person. That's one of the lessons. Over here in Sausalito I am going to keep on reading your posts, join smartnow... and tell others In a civilization when love is gone we turn to justice and when justice is gone we turn to power and when power is gone we turn to violence. Opportunity is often inconvenient. Remember the many compartments of the heart, the seed of what is possible. So much of who we are is defined by the places we hold for each other. For it is not our ingenuity that sets us apart, but our capacity for love, the possibility our way will be lit by grace. Our hearts prisms, chiseling out the colors of pure light.

cassiph responded on May 5, 2009 "For all of us women who were raised to achieve, then let our head rule our heart - instead of engaging both" Oh man, am I still doing that. Im technically not yet in the age range for this site (25), but I just stumbled onto it and will definitely be reading more in it. I haven't learned how to balance my heart and head, and it's only just begun to bother me (though I couldn't figure out just what it was until I read that.) So thank you all, for letting me know that it can stay fun and youthful, that things may go down, but they do go back up. And that everything can prepare you for the next step, if you just approach it the right way.

julie responded on August 1, 2008 Wow, Kare, you are extremely poetic in your writing. My heart goes out to you for your losses. And, thank you for your loving post. Warmly, Julie

longhornkate responded on August 1, 2008 Thank you so much. This is one of the best blogs I've read in a long time.

julie responded on August 2, 2008 thank you, longhornkate!

Rick Segal responded on August 1, 2008 Julie, I'm a Venture Capitalist here in Toronto Canada. I've given a number of talks about so-called 'failure' as well as mentioning the importance of failure on my blog. Funny enough, last month, I mentioned you, your history, and your current company, in talk I gave at one of Biz Schools here. I said "I would fund this women in a second because she has 360 degrees of experience, knows the drill and is a wealth of talent" Your post was forwarded to me by another VC who thinks like I do. I forwarded your post two my 20 something year old daughters with the following note: "Besides your Mom, here is a role model. Read this, print it out, save it. xoxo Dad" Best of luck with the new gig. >R< Rick Segal, Partner JLA Ventures & Blackberry Partners Fund P.S. Tell your technical people the zip code space doesn't accept non-US data which means people, like me, are putting in bogus zip codes, diluting your reporting value. Sorry, I'm a geek at heart.

julie responded on August 1, 2008 Rick, Thank you for your post. We are out raising money, so you know I'll be in touch soon, if I don't hear from you. I'm at Julie@smartnow.com. Best, Julie

aziz responded on August 1, 2008 Honest and straight from the heart. I heard you speak on the only SVASE panel that I attended during my time last year in San Francisco. You were good. You sat next to a former entrepreneur and VC, Skip Glass, and another hardworking entrepreneur, Jonathan Cobb (Kiptronic). I'd been desperately trying to raise funding after I graduated from my MBA program in Boston, loaded with deferred and accumulating debt and filled with resentment for VCs and angels, because I could not get anyone to even listen to my pitch, since I had no former reputation. I knew then that my company was/is the best internet opportunity around and it would become successful, if only I could convince some investor to give me a shot. The trouble was that I was seeking justification for myself and my idea, through investment. I had/have a big ego/"head" that was/is pushing me onward, as I perceived failure on a daily basis. We all read the headlines from TechCrunch when a company raises a round, but it turns out that investors don't justify our businesses. They mitigate their risk by finding already justified businesses, totally understandable. It wasn't until I began to listen to my "heart", (out of desperation), that I was able to understand what I was doing wrong. I had no technical talent to do what I was proposing. I was a guy with an idea and a crap website. That is not a business. So I did what I had dreaded before: I interviewed 200 craigslist applicants, and partnered with a superbly talented CTO. Since we had no developed product yet, I stopped looking for A Round funding, seeking alternative incubators and angels. Guess what? Within two days of signing away a portion of my business to my partner, (vested of course), we got seed funding from the first incubator I contacted and relocated to an incredible incubator, TechStars, in Boulder, CO. We're at the end of our tenure here, have built a terrific product, built out our team a bit, and are about to secure investment until our next round. This doesn't mean it's all roses and candy, far from it. We have at least a 3-5 year war we're instigating with a new technology application that I dreamed up long ago, but you know what? I'm only ready now, after going through the cycle: embarrassment, humiliation, desperation, reflection, concentration, and salvation. Thank you for posting this. It resonates within.

julie responded on August 1, 2008 AZIZ! Congratulations. Wow. You are really going to set the world on fire now. I can feel it. And, better yet, you will be one wise, wonderful soul. Actually you are. Yeah. Very happy for you. Please keep me apprised of your progress. I'm officially in your fan club now. Warmly, Julie

aziz responded on August 5, 2008 Thank you Julie. I will keep you updated with my progress, and I wish you happiness in your life.

EdShaz/IntegrityHQ responded on August 1, 2008 Will you marry me? In seriousness, I have printed your piece, and will share it with family, and friends, especially the youths. I often share a similar, (albeit humble compared to yours), life narrative. But was burning out of inspiration. Your generous revelation was right on time. I thank you. ~Ed

julie responded on August 2, 2008 Thanks for the note, Ed. I appreciate all. As for the marriage proposal-well, I haven't even used online dating services, making the leap for marriage via email feels like trying to jump across the Grand Canyon..at least right now ;)

ghennipher responded on August 1, 2008 What a truly beautiful and insightful article. I relate to this on so many levels, as many of us who have ventured into starting our own businesses can. Thank you for offering such a personal view into your path to happiness. This is one of the most important blog posts I've ever read about moving on and choosing success and happiness despite past mistakes. Best wishes to you.

julie responded on August 2, 2008 Thank you for the wishes. Back at you, as Ellen would say.

VincentWright responded on August 1, 2008 Wow, wow, wow, wow, WOW, Julie!! Some of those wows are for your story. Some of the wows are kudos for you, your inner strength, and your writing/storytelling ability. But, some of those wows are for the serendipity which brings other readers and me to hear about your story, Julie. (I saw your story referred to by one of my followers on Twitter.com) I can't quite put the importance of your story into words but, for now, please let me simply say "Thank you!" for sharing this. I believe it will encourage many of us to take one more deep breath and try to fix ourselves one more time.

julie responded on August 2, 2008 thank you.

MikeS responded on August 1, 2008 Nice article, and your self honesty got my attention. There are positives and negatives in everything. "The heart" is never wrong. What makes it seem like it can be wrong is that our ability to listen, to feel, to just hook-up with all the stuff around us is often weak. Everything we need is always around us. We don't see it. If we get an inkling, we don't fully trust it. But it's always there...the right things, the needed things. Always. Have to see it, see it often enough to begin to trust what you see and feel. That's tough. I know. But you are well on your way. Good luck as you move forward.

julie responded on August 2, 2008 Thank you, I'm touched. I've more questions come to me about the heart part..and all of those (I think) were from men. It is hard to separate head from heart-thank you for this post.

rachel responded on August 1, 2008 Julie...I believe strongly that what you need, you will find and tonite that was shown to me. Recently I suffered losses in the workforce (no where near comparable to yours) that hit me very hard. I'm a 29 year old executive who thought she had reached her goals only to be quickly and strongly reminded that you can never stop trying. I am slowly building myself up and feel so rejuvenated after reading your letter. I don't have to give up and I can be more than I was before. I don't have to listen to what people say becuase the know only a portion of who I am. Thank you for your brilliance and for being so brave in stepping out to support those around you. - rachel

julie responded on August 2, 2008 Rachel- Good luck and if I can be of help or support, let me know. You can reach me at: Julie@smartnow.com. Warmly, Julie

MikeSchinkel responded on August 1, 2008 Wow. I've often thought of Pets.com as the poster child for the lack of vision of the dotcom era but never had a put a face or a personality to it. I definitely have a much different (better) impression now. Your courage and the quality of your thought and your writing shine through. That said, your story is oh-so similar to mine albeit my failure was not nearly as visible as your. At one point everyone in our industry knew our name (and mine) and we were recognized by a leading business magazine for our success. But now I'm in that rebuilding process and have been for several years. It's actually a lot harder at 45 to reinvent oneself than it is to invest oneself at 20-something. Hopefully I will be able to look back in a few years and have a similar positive outcome from my situation. Anyway, good luck to you. Oh, and don't define yourself too much; you seem to be not only smart but also pretty.

julie responded on August 2, 2008 Hi there, It is harder to build in your forties...because the risks seem to be more real and the financial demands are real. And, it can be easy to lose the wonder and enthusiasm that can manifest a truly great business. If I can be of support to you at all, happy to do so.

nelking responded on August 2, 2008 I stumbled upon your post from Twitter. I must admit, I frequently refer to Pets.com as an example of those wild ideas that we all thought were great. So many people were caught up in the hype. It's easy to pretend now that we knew better. Thanks for putting the human face to it all and sharing your lessons. I think your article is one I can share with others who are going through a sever career change. I look forward to seeing how things develop for you.

julie responded on August 2, 2008 thank you for the note.

askpatty responded on August 2, 2008 Great post and I can really relate. As CEO/President of www.askpatty.com I have to have talks with myself daily to remind myself ..YES I can do this! This is posted on my desk: "You gain strength , courage and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face...You must do the thing you think you cannot do." Eleanor Roosevelt Hope your new business is a smash hit! Jody DeVere CEO/President www.AskPatty.com

julie responded on August 2, 2008 Hi Jody, Went up to your site. I love the service you are providing. We have to work together on some level. Thanks for the direct email, too. Will be in touch soon.

ravi responded on August 2, 2008 Julie, you proved to be a very successful person and professional in all aspects of your career. Problems do exist and they manifest when time is fit but you showed courage to fight the odds and pull through. You had the initiative that most people will never have due to their lack of self esteem. You have been very fortunate to have had a position as a CEO and to have come up with wonderful websites. You are a total success. Continue doing what you do because it is working for everyone. God Bless You, Ravi.

julie responded on August 2, 2008 Ravi, Thank you so much. You are such a generous soul. Warmly, Julie

ADCastillo responded on August 2, 2008 Julie....I can relate to your life story on many different levels. I am in my mid 30's, going through a bit of a depression, trying to start a new business and raising 3 kids. I have spent many sleepless nights lately contemplating my life, goals, past and future. It is horrifying to look back at the numerous mistakes and failures that have marked my adult life until now. It seems that trying to reinvent yourself, especially when there are others depending on you, is not a simple task. Nevertheless, I feel that I must take stock of my life and make it what I want it to be from this point forward. After all, if I don't - who will? Your article has inspired me to keep forging ahead, no matter how difficult it can be some days...thanks!

julie responded on August 2, 2008 AD, You and your courage inspire me. Let me know if I can ever help you. Not sure what I can do..plus as my friend said to me and now I'll say to you, 'you have all you need inside of you to be happy and successful, you just need to listen to your own spirit.' Good luck and please let me know how you are doing, Julie

jamesthewitch responded on August 2, 2008 Thanks so much for sharing, Julie. I really appreciate your candor and your openness about learning from life's "mistakes". A great article written from a learning-wisdom perspective!

julie responded on August 2, 2008 Thanks, James.

Alex Birch responded on August 2, 2008 This was a very powerful, poignant introspection. I appreciate your advice, even if I'm a 31 year old male. PS Your site's design is absolutely amazing!!!

julie responded on August 2, 2008 Thanks, Alex.

francine responded on August 2, 2008 Whatever your next venture is, i'm in! There is no true success without what you have been through. I'm so proud that you are a woman, you have the courage to express this, and you have the courage also to express your personal failures. I wrote a book about my own failure, which happened to be in foster parenting. Believe me, the feelings aren't any different that those surrounding business failure (I have had both). Oh, and Ive had a bunch of failed marriages, too. Now I look at them as necessary pieces of a long and happy life, but at the time...namaste

julie responded on August 2, 2008 Francine, Thank you for sharing. Here's to really living, Julie

Baeocystin responded on August 2, 2008 Hi Julie. Do you want to know what I remember most about pets.com? I remember that you managed to find a way to donate your warehoused supply of dog/cat/pet food to local animal shelters before running out of money, instead of letting it rot while the bankruptcy worked its way through. And I remember being very impressed. Not many people, or companies, would have taken the time to do something like that. At the time, I didn't know enough about the company to know you were the CEO, but I made a mental note to mention this little story if I ever met someone who worked at pets.com. And here you are, so here you go; hopefully a happy memory from that time. :) Robert

julie responded on August 3, 2008 Wow, I can't believe you know that story. I received a letter from the Governor of Alaska thanking me for helping save sled dogs lives. It meant so much to me. Also, just to set the record straight, I actually shut the company down with a net positive worth and returned money to the shareholders because I knew the bubble had burst and did not want to run to bankruptcy. That was never reported correctly by the press. But, my investors and my board knew it to be true. The first time in the history of Nasdaq that has ever been done..not a first I wanted. Thanks you so much for bringing the dog story to light and also giving me an opportunity to talk about it again.

Baeocystin responded on August 4, 2008 Hopefully I'll serve as a reminder that people remember the good things, too, even if the critics of the world have the loudest crow. And no, I didn't realize that you shut the company down while there was still some capital available. The local papers only reported it as a bankruptcy. It only makes me more impressed with you, though. I understand that may not be a first you wanted, but think about what you're saying-- you saw the writing on the wall, and did the ethical thing instead of dragging it out. No other company in similar circumstance had done so previously? If I were in your shoes, I would be very proud of myself for having the cajones to do so. I hope you do, too.

julie responded on August 4, 2008 Thanks again.

Nick responded on August 3, 2008 Hi Julie, Thank you so much for your story. My story is very, very similar to yours, however I actually did loose EVERYTHING (other than my beautiful bride of 18 years). We lost our real estate business, our savings and my 401K, and because we personally financed our company (Sub chapter S Corp) we also lost over $250,000 in personal funds. Now, because we have no business we have no income. Because we have defaulted on several unsecured loans, our joint credit has been destroyed. our insurance rates are up, and we both have been declined for all forms of credit. I have applied for several high end jobs, but my potential employers have refused to hire me because of my "Poor Credit History". We were evicted from our small two room apartment in Chandler, Arizona, and our only car was repossessed. Thanks for the generosity of my father, my wife and I are living in a trailer in a trailer park in Mesa, Arizona. Our failure happened about 3 years ago. YES, I have contemplated suicide... so has my wife. We need therapy, but we lost our insurance when we lost our business, and $120/hr for therapy is totally out of the question. We would love to have some time to just paint or have some time to get ourselves together, but we have bills to pay and we need income. Not "Wal-Mart" income, we need CEO income. Our attorney told us that bankruptcy isn't the best solution for us in our particular, and rather complicated, situation. Julie, How did you get the resources to "Start Over"? We would love to start over but we have no financial resources and each and every employer I have attempted to work for has told me that I am "Over Qualified" for their position. I have attempted to get lesser paying "jobs" but when they see my resume and note that I have been a president and CEO of a corporation, they seem to think that I am "padding" my resume to make myself look better than I really am. I actually got turned down from an $12.00/hr job last week! Any direction from anyone would be GREATLY appreciated! We'll move anywhere in the world for a new start. YES... ANYWHERE in the world! This is our last call out to the Universe for some help! After two years, we have absolutely no more Ideas left. We are totally at the end of our rope. LITERALLY! Times are tough... REALLY tough. This IS our "Last Call", Nick & Robin PS We'll check back every day on this board to see if anyone has left any information or insight for us.

IMP responded on October 30, 2008 I have a clever sister married to a remarkable gifted man who constantly fails in business (mostly partners doing stupid things). But she has found relocation and new jobs possible only by "dumbing down" her resume to get in the door. She then astonishes them by her expertise and rises quickly. This option may be your best bet. She tells me to NEVER tell anyone in the new jobs your real history ... SHOW them your real abilities! Good luck.

pen responded on August 5, 2008 i would love to know why your attorney said you are not a candidate for bankruptcy. i just went through it. YOU are poster children for bankruptcy. let me know if you want to discuss.